Discussion:
Lost Channels 9 + 11
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P T
2009-06-23 03:24:04 UTC
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After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
Scott Smith
2009-06-23 03:34:07 UTC
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Post by P T
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
Try a better antenna?


.
.

- Scott Smith: ***@iphouse.com
MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/choppersmith
Mike O'Brien
2009-06-23 03:40:49 UTC
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Post by P T
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
where are you located and what type of antenna?

www.antennaweb.org
Bob
2009-06-23 04:16:16 UTC
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Post by Mike O'Brien
Post by P T
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
where are you located and what type of antenna?
www.antennaweb.org
I went to web site, entered info. I got a listing -
so how do I determine what is the best antenna to use?

if possible, I would like to mount the antenna in the attic....
are there local stores that are highly knowledgeable about digital antenna?
thanks



DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City, State Live
Date Compass
Heading Miles
From RF
Channel
* yellow
uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS, MN 325° 6.7 32
* yellow
uhf KTCI-DT 2.3 PBS ST. PAUL, MN 330° 6.1 26
* yellow
vhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS, MN 325° 6.7 11
* yellow
vhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS, MN 330° 6.1 9
* yellow
uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS, MN 325° 6.7 45
* yellow
uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL, MN 325° 6.7 35
* yellow
uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL, MN 330° 6.1 34
* yellow
uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS, MN 330° 6.1 29
* green
uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS, MN 325° 6.7 22
red
uhf K25IA 25 TBN MINNEAPOLIS, MN 267° 10.2 25
red
uhf WDMI-LP 62 DAY MINNEAPOLIS, MN 267° 10.2 62
* blue
uhf KPXM-DT 41.1 ION ST. CLOUD, MN 311° 41.9 40
violet
vhf WUMN-CA 13 UNI MINNEAPOLIS, MN 266° 10.2 13
Note:





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Mike H
2009-06-24 13:46:09 UTC
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I went to web site, entered info.  I got a listing  -
  so how do I determine what is the best antenna to use?
            uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS, MN  325° 6.7 32
At about 7 miles from Shoreview you're pretty dang close. You could
likely do just fine with one of those cheap units from radioshack that
just sit on top of the TV, new tech rabbit ears.

I don't know of any store locally that is too bright about stuff.
Your best bet would be finding someone with knowledge at a Radio
Shack. In particular if there is an independent one close to you. If
looking to buy online, Solid Signal has some good info:
http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/
P T
2009-06-24 21:17:25 UTC
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According to antennaweb.org, I'm 14 miles SW of the Shorview towers (~35
deg. heading. I'm using one of those Silver-Surfer or something
antennas (a sort of horizontal delta affair.) As I know from bicycling,
I've got higher elevation than the surrounding terrain.

I've managed to pick up a signal of 3/5 bars strength on Ch.11, which
looks good with no pixelation. I accomplished this by draping two
~3"x18" strips of aluminum foil over the last two vanes. (Good contact
was important, as opposed to a mere draping of the foil.)

Still seeking 9.
Mike H
2009-06-25 16:41:07 UTC
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Post by P T
According to antennaweb.org, I'm 14 miles SW of the Shorview towers (~35
deg. heading.  I'm using one of those Silver-Surfer or something
antennas (a sort of horizontal delta affair.)  As I know from bicycling,
I've got higher elevation than the surrounding terrain.
I've managed to pick up a signal of 3/5 bars strength on Ch.11, which
looks good with no pixelation.  I accomplished this by draping two
~3"x18" strips of aluminum foil over the last two vanes.  (Good contact
was important, as opposed to a mere draping of the foil.)  
Still seeking 9.
Take a piece of cardboard that is bigger than the antenna shape it
into a slightly curved surface. Have it be about 1 - 2 inches behind
the antenna and point everything the direction of shoreview and see if
you can pick up channel 9. What you need is a reflector that will
catch the VHF and focus it onto the elements.

For example, a good homade antenna would be the 4-bay style from this
location
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/4baystuff/

I made one without the reflector and did fine until the change over.
I need to add a reflector to pickup 9 reliably, though 11 will come in
and lock pretty good. 11 wavers around much less than it did before
the switch. This summer i'm going to move my Satellite antenna and
when I do that I'll add an external UHF/VHF antenna and diplex it onto
the same lines.
Mark Olson
2009-06-25 16:45:51 UTC
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Post by Mike H
Post by P T
According to antennaweb.org, I'm 14 miles SW of the Shorview towers (~35
deg. heading. I'm using one of those Silver-Surfer or something
antennas (a sort of horizontal delta affair.) As I know from bicycling,
I've got higher elevation than the surrounding terrain.
I've managed to pick up a signal of 3/5 bars strength on Ch.11, which
looks good with no pixelation. I accomplished this by draping two
~3"x18" strips of aluminum foil over the last two vanes. (Good contact
was important, as opposed to a mere draping of the foil.)
Still seeking 9.
Take a piece of cardboard that is bigger than the antenna shape it
into a slightly curved surface. Have it be about 1 - 2 inches behind
the antenna and point everything the direction of shoreview and see if
you can pick up channel 9. What you need is a reflector that will
catch the VHF and focus it onto the elements.
For example, a good homade antenna would be the 4-bay style from this
location
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/4baystuff/
I made one without the reflector and did fine until the change over.
I need to add a reflector to pickup 9 reliably, though 11 will come in
and lock pretty good. 11 wavers around much less than it did before
the switch. This summer i'm going to move my Satellite antenna and
when I do that I'll add an external UHF/VHF antenna and diplex it onto
the same lines.
It's really pretty simple. Antennas are designed to cover certain frequency
ranges. If the channel you want to pick up is far enough outside that range,
no amount of fiddling is ever going to produce a strong signal. This is not
rocket science, you need an antenna that covers high VHF (9 and 11) and UHF
(all other stations). This can be two separate antennas with a splitter/
combiner connecting them to a single coax or a hybrid design that spans
the two broadcast bands.

From the quick look I took at your link, that is definitely a UHF-only
antenna so not suitable for 9 & 11 unless you are really close to the
tower.
Mike H
2009-06-25 21:31:22 UTC
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Post by P T
According to antennaweb.org, I'm 14 miles SW of the Shorview towers (~35
deg. heading.  I'm using one of those Silver-Surfer or something
antennas (a sort of horizontal delta affair.)  As I know from bicycling,
I've got higher elevation than the surrounding terrain.
I've managed to pick up a signal of 3/5 bars strength on Ch.11, which
looks good with no pixelation.  I accomplished this by draping two
~3"x18" strips of aluminum foil over the last two vanes.  (Good contact
was important, as opposed to a mere draping of the foil.)  
Still seeking 9.
Take a piece of cardboard that is bigger than the antenna  shape it
into a slightly curved surface.  Have it be about 1 - 2 inches behind
the antenna and point everything the direction of shoreview and see if
you can pick up channel 9.  What you need is a reflector that will
catch the VHF and focus it onto the elements.
For example, a good homade antenna would be the 4-bay style from this
location
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/4baystuff/
I made one without the reflector and did fine until the change over.
I need to add a reflector to pickup 9 reliably, though 11 will come in
and lock pretty good.  11 wavers around much less than it did before
the switch.  This summer i'm going to move my Satellite antenna and
when I do that I'll add an external UHF/VHF antenna and diplex it onto
the same lines.
It's really pretty simple.  Antennas are designed to cover certain frequency
ranges.  If the channel you want to pick up is far enough outside that range,
no amount of fiddling is ever going to produce a strong signal.  This is not
rocket science, you need an antenna that covers high VHF (9 and 11) and UHF
(all other stations).  This can be two separate antennas with a splitter/
combiner connecting them to a single coax or a hybrid design that spans
the two broadcast bands.
 From the quick look I took at your link, that is definitely a UHF-only
antenna so not suitable for 9 & 11 unless you are really close to the
tower.
This one picks up high band VHF quite well with decent gain:
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Doug McIntyre
2009-06-23 04:36:30 UTC
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Post by P T
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
They're broadcasting, I get them just fine. But then again, I have a
pretty big antenna in the attic that has a wide band reception. KMSP
and KARE did move their DT signals down to the VHF-HI band instead of
staying up in the UHF area that they were broadcasting before June
12th. I am picking up their digital broadcasts on VHF channel 9 and VHF
channel 11, as opposed to the temporary UHF channels they were on before.

Channel 2, 4 & 5 kept their UHF broadcast channel slots, since they
were in the VHF-LO band, and couldn't stay there since it is being
reassigned.

I'd imagine that your antenna doesn't pick the VHF-HI band up very
well, and you'll need something that does to pick up 9 & 11.

The VHF band broadcasts out further, which is why they'd like to stay in it.

You can try aiming what VHF components you may have in your antenna to
Shoreview more, the UHF path and VHF path may be slightly different
for you in your location, since they are received differently by the
different elements in most antennas.

4 & 5 VHF analog slots are still broadcasting their how to hook up
digitally loops. :)
catpandaddy
2009-06-23 04:57:56 UTC
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Post by Doug McIntyre
Post by P T
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
They're broadcasting, I get them just fine. But then again, I have a
pretty big antenna in the attic that has a wide band reception. KMSP
and KARE did move their DT signals down to the VHF-HI band instead of
staying up in the UHF area that they were broadcasting before June
12th. I am picking up their digital broadcasts on VHF channel 9 and VHF
channel 11, as opposed to the temporary UHF channels they were on before.
Channel 2, 4 & 5 kept their UHF broadcast channel slots, since they
were in the VHF-LO band, and couldn't stay there since it is being
reassigned.
I'd imagine that your antenna doesn't pick the VHF-HI band up very
well, and you'll need something that does to pick up 9 & 11.
The VHF band broadcasts out further, which is why they'd like to stay in it.
You can try aiming what VHF components you may have in your antenna to
Shoreview more, the UHF path and VHF path may be slightly different
for you in your location, since they are received differently by the
different elements in most antennas.
4 & 5 VHF analog slots are still broadcasting their how to hook up
digitally loops. :)
I didn't even realize the switchover had taken place. I've still got both
my analog and digital-converter cable tv signals, and didn't even have to
rescan or re-map the channels. When I say analog I just mean bypassing the
set-top box, for all I know the CATV tuner in the tv set I bought ten years
ago counts as a digital receiver.
catpandaddy
2009-06-23 04:54:18 UTC
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Post by P T
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
Try calling 911?
Mike H
2009-06-24 13:41:03 UTC
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After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11.  I've rescanned
several times, but no change.  What gives?
KARE 11 and KMSP 9 moved their digital broadcasts to frequencies that
are in the upper VHF band from their previous location in the middle
of the UHF band. It would appear that your antenna is tuned for only
UHF, and thus is missing those other channels.

You will need to either add a VHF antenna and combine that signal with
your UHF antenna signal, or get a new antenna that has both VHF and
UHF elements.
Bert Hyman
2009-06-24 21:49:55 UTC
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Post by Mike H
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11.  I've rescanned
several times, but no change.  What gives?
KARE 11 and KMSP 9 moved their digital broadcasts to frequencies that
are in the upper VHF band from their previous location in the middle
of the UHF band. It would appear that your antenna is tuned for only
UHF, and thus is missing those other channels.
Or the antenna might not be aimed correctly, or might not be directional
enough.

I found that since channel 11 moved back to its VHF slot I've had a hard
time getting a stable picture. Signal strength is fine, but the
multipath is killing the image.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN ***@iphouse.com
Mike H
2009-06-25 16:42:58 UTC
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Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Mike H
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11.  I've rescanned
several times, but no change.  What gives?
KARE 11 and KMSP 9 moved their digital broadcasts to frequencies that
are in the upper VHF band from their previous location in the middle
of the UHF band.  It would appear that your antenna is tuned for only
UHF, and thus is missing those other channels.
Or the antenna might not be aimed correctly, or might not be directional
enough.
I found that since channel 11 moved back to its VHF slot I've had a hard
time getting a stable picture. Signal strength is fine, but the
multipath is killing the image.
how do you mean multi-path? I haven't seen anything like that on the
digital signals that I'm aware of. Multi-path on a digital signal
should show up as difficulty locking onto the signal, but once locked
it should just work. Are you perhaps so close that you need a
attenuator to knock down the strength of some unwanted signals?
Bert Hyman
2009-06-25 16:52:06 UTC
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Post by Mike H
Post by Bert Hyman
om
Post by Mike H
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11.  I've
rescanned several times, but no change.  What gives?
KARE 11 and KMSP 9 moved their digital broadcasts to frequencies
that are in the upper VHF band from their previous location in the
middle of the UHF band.  It would appear that your antenna is tuned
for only UHF, and thus is missing those other channels.
Or the antenna might not be aimed correctly, or might not be
directional enough.
I found that since channel 11 moved back to its VHF slot I've had a
hard time getting a stable picture. Signal strength is fine, but the
multipath is killing the image.
how do you mean multi-path? I haven't seen anything like that on the
digital signals that I'm aware of. Multi-path on a digital signal
should show up as difficulty locking onto the signal, but once locked
it should just work.
I'm assuming it's multi-path, since the signal strength is fine, but
there's either no image at all or one that's constantly breaking up.
Channel 9 was a problem too until I moved the antenna. The UHF channels
all come in fine.
Post by Mike H
Are you perhaps so close that you need a attenuator to knock down the
strength of some unwanted signals?
Probably not; I'm down in St. Paul near Highland Park using an indoor
antenna.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN ***@iphouse.com
Andy Wang
2009-06-26 19:21:52 UTC
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Post by Bert Hyman
Probably not; I'm down in St. Paul near Highland Park using an indoor
antenna.
I have dish network so don't normally rely on over the air, but i do
have an OTA antenna for TPT and CW (gotta get that smallville in HD,
although i'm giving up on that show now). In the highland park area I
can barely get 11 and 9 on VHF with my radio shack antenna, it drops out
constantly. If I stand and hold the antenna it's more stable :). Had
no problems locking into on UHF, but it sucks on VHF. Fortunately, I
don't really care, I was just curious after reading this thread.

My brother in law lives in the midway area and he can't get the VHF
signals either with a philips uhf+vhf set top antenna. Unfortunately,
he doesn't have cable or satellite, so it sucks for him.

Andy
Bert Hyman
2009-06-26 19:33:50 UTC
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Post by Andy Wang
Post by Bert Hyman
Probably not; I'm down in St. Paul near Highland Park using an indoor
antenna.
I have dish network so don't normally rely on over the air, but i do
have an OTA antenna for TPT and CW (gotta get that smallville in HD,
although i'm giving up on that show now).
I use Dish too but got a digital converter as a backup if the satellite
service were to fail.

Since I can't get HD off the satellite (trees), I've had no need to
replace any of the TVs in the house.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN ***@iphouse.com
t***@gmail.com
2016-03-30 02:47:34 UTC
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Post by P T
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
I had a similar problem setting up a new antenna after reading several post suggesting that the antenna direction was off, I kept rotating my antenna until the small end was pointed NW perhaps NNW from Plymouth and KARE 11 came in just fine... not true when pointed at any other position. also I increased the total number of channels accessible by 10. The broad end of my antenna is pointed at KARE 11 in Golden Valley just off 55 a few blocks east of 169.... Works for me, may work for you.
Doug McIntyre
2016-03-30 05:22:37 UTC
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Post by P T
After the change last week I can't receive 9 or 11. I've rescanned
several times, but no change. What gives?
I had a similar problem setting up a new antenna after reading several post=
suggesting that the antenna direction was off, I kept rotating my antenna =
until the small end was pointed NW perhaps NNW from Plymouth and KARE 11 ca=
me in just fine... not true when pointed at any other position. also I incr=
eased the total number of channels accessible by 10. The broad end of my a=
ntenna is pointed at KARE 11 in Golden Valley just off 55 a few blocks east=
of 169.... Works for me, may work for you.
You do have to be careful in Usenet quoting old posts. The one you are
responding to was posted almost 7 years ago. The service the original
poster posted from hasn't even existed for years and years..

But just to followup to your note, KARE11 doesn't broadcast their
signal from their studio. They uplink to their Shoreview tower and
broadcast from there. Almost all the big broadcasters for the Twin
Cities area broadcast out of Shoreview, so if you are aiming your
antenna, it would be best to aim it there, and not to their studios
in Golden Valley.
--
Doug McIntyre
***@themcintyres.us
Doc O'Leary
2016-03-30 16:58:10 UTC
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For your reference, records indicate that
Post by Doug McIntyre
But just to followup to your note, KARE11 doesn't broadcast their
signal from their studio. They uplink to their Shoreview tower and
broadcast from there. Almost all the big broadcasters for the Twin
Cities area broadcast out of Shoreview, so if you are aiming your
antenna, it would be best to aim it there, and not to their studios
in Golden Valley.
The other historical note is that KARE 11 (at least) initially
broadcast their DTV signal on the UHF band, then switched to a VHF
signal for some reason around the time when analog TV ended. People
with a UHF-only antenna, including me, got shafted until we bought a
new antenna.

Fun times . . .
--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly
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